Phil amnd Ted’s Sexy Boomer Show #20 with Paul Willson

[00:00:00] A.E. Guy: Welcome to Phil and Ted’s Sexy Boomer Show with your hosts, Phil Proctor and Ted Bonnitt, Phil and Ted's guest today is actor and comedian Paul Willson known for his roles in office space. The Larry Sanders show, Curb Your Enthusiasm and Cheers. And now, your sexy boomer hosts, Phil Proctor and Ted Bonnitt.

Paul Willson: Welcome to come to the, oh, I'm sorry. No, this is your script.

[00:00:32] Ted Bonnitt: Welcome to Phil and Ted sexy boomer show. I'm Ted Bonnitt. and

[00:00:35] Phil Proctor: And I'm Paul Willson.

Paul Willson: No, no, you're not.

Paul Willson: I'll fight you for that.

Phil Proctor: Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, I'm Phil Proctor playing Paul Willson. And today we're actually talking to Paul Willson, the real Paul Willson with two L’s. And a personal friend for many, many, many years, a collaborator.

Paul Willson: Uh, not in France during World War II. That's a different kind.

Phil Proctor: And because I've known you for such a long time, I can't remember anything about our history.

[00:01:05] Paul Willson: I think the first time I saw you, you were in the pool at Wendy Cutler's father's house, on Vista in Hollywood.

[00:01:11] Phil Proctor: There's a memory. Oh my goodness. I remember, uh, when I lost a contact lens in Billy Wilder’s pool. But I don't think you were there then.

Paul Willson: No, and I think that's a better name drop than Wendy Cutler’s. How did you happen to be in Billy Wilder’s pool?

Phil Proctor: The Firesign Theatre was writing a movie called the Odyssey, uh, which was, um, modern, crazy take on the story, the classic story. And there was a producer, I think her name was Phillips and we were having a. At Billy Wilder's house, Billy was away. So we, uh, managed to take a couple of Picasso's off the wall, which helped to fund the movie. It was the headiest high-flying Hollywood experiences that the group had. It was a real Hollywood story, especially since the movie was never made.

Paul Willson: That makes it a typical Hollywood story.

[00:02:12] Ted Bonnitt: You are first, second time guest.

[00:02:15] Paul Willson: This is the first real time because of the first time I was with the tall and funny Larry Hankin.

[00:02:20] Phil Proctor: Loquacious, explain again to, to our, our, our fan out there. Uh, we originally did this show at well, Ted, you can tell it cause you, it was your great idea.

Idiot. Tell us about it.

[00:02:34] Ted Bonnitt: Well, we have this idea of, of having a real lunch because Phil and I had been having lunches. That's a nice jet.

[00:02:43] Paul Willson: It's a big jet.

[00:02:43] Phil Proctor: That's a big jet. Is it probably a corporate jet? I just hope it doesn't drop any blue poop on it.

[00:02:50] Ted Bonnitt: We actually got the shadow of the jet fly over the backyard.

[00:02:51] Phil Proctor: Yeah, we probably got a glitch in the direct TV transmission there.

[00:02:56] Ted Bonnitt: For those of you tuning in and hearing birds, chirping and planes flying

[00:03:02] Paul Willson: The busiest general aviation airport in the United States.

[00:03:08] Ted Bonnitt: Well, we started doing the show at, uh, the famed, Chez Jay restaurant in Santa Monica. We decided to have a real lunch and a real conversation. And what would happen was nobody ever got lunch. And then the plague hit before that all started. Paul Willson came down and was one of our very first guests on the show. It's and you can hear it. It's the show with Paul and Larry Hankin. But, uh, now here we are over well over a year, seeing you for the first time.

[00:03:38] Phil Proctor: Yeah.

[00:03:39] Paul Willson: I barely recognized you guys.

[00:03:41] Phil Proctor: Um, well, but we took our masks off and then, you know, he's in a moment of fear.

Ted Bonnitt: It's not a home invasion.

Phil Proctor: We're outside. Out of the bunker.

[00:03:52] Ted Bonnitt: Yes.I think it's time to change the name of that.

Phil Proctor: The name of the show is Phil and Ted’s Sexy Boomer Show bunker to bunker. So what are you proposing, Sexy Ted?

[00:04:03] Ted Bonnitt: We're out of the bunkers now. Thankfully we're vaccinated. I guess we could call it house calls. Cause we're going over to people's houses.

[00:04:10] Phil Proctor: Well, that's nice. How about face to face or in your face, even in your face

[00:04:15] Ted Bonnitt: welfare check.

[00:04:18] Phil Proctor: it's been a long time. We should have a contest. Send us at our website suggestions for the new name of the show.

[00:04:26] Ted Bonnitt: That would be great, but we're here. We just wanted to say we're out.

[00:04:29] Phil Proctor: We're out.

[00:04:31] Paul Willson: Did you notice now everybody looks like they, they just shaved their beard off because the sun hasn't been hitting them?

[00:04:34] Phil Proctor: All right. So. Life and career. How in heaven's name did, if you, if you go to I M B D

[00:04:45] Paul Willson: internet movie database,

Phil Proctor: MDB, L U T S U V w X, Y, Z. You'll see an enormous list of Paul's appearances in television and films,

[00:04:58] Ted Bonnitt: I copied and pasted your resume on IMD B. And it was 11 pages long. I didn't have enough paper.

[00:05:05] Paul Willson: Oh, you should use the smaller font.

[00:05:08] Ted Bonnitt: Paul. Where would people know you most? From what roles?

[00:05:11] Paul Willson: WeightWatchers oh, I'm sorry.

Ted Bonnitt: Safeco.

Paul Willson: Well, the Safeco commercials were great. Yeah. A gift late in life. Uh, and working with the wonderful Phoebe Doron. Yeah. Bless her. She was with Michael Dunn. Remember the little fellow, a little person.

[00:05:26] Phil Proctor: And they did some, she was a little person too, but she was just a diminutive.

[00:05:32] Paul Willson: But hey had an act, a cabaret act. They worked at hungry eye and they also did several episodes of The Wild, Wild West. Michael played a con man hustler and she played his mom and she sang and she's gorgeous.

[00:05:42] Phil Proctor: Yeah, she is. That's wonderful. But in terms of like, uh, entertaining television series and things like that.

[00:05:54] Paul Willson: There are three tent poles to my career.Uh, it's Gary Shandling show. With a side dish of several Larry Sanders episodes; Cheers.

[00:06:06] Phil Proctor: And office space.

[00:06:07] Paul Willson: Right. Those are the three things that people would remember me most for.

Ted Bonnitt: I loved the Larry Sanders show.

[00:06:13] Paul Willson: Yeah. Larry Sanders was a great, that was like the fruition of what, uh, of what Gary was. He was absolutely brilliant.

[00:06:20] Ted Bonnitt: Rip Torn is one of my all time. Favorite actors

Paul Willson: Rip was quite a character. I have a funny rip torn story.

[00:06:26] Ted Bonnitt: Rip Torn played Larry Sander’s producer.

[00:06:31] Paul Willson: Yeah. The Larry Sanders offices were directly across from the, uh, Seinfeld stage, uh, at CBS Radford. And they added a second story during the hiatus. The first time I went back there, I noticed that there were two windows at the front of this face facing the stage, and one of them had been filled in with stucco.

And we had a friend at the time who was, had been in the grip department for years and said that what happened was Gary came and saw that his dressing room and Rip’s dressing room, both had windows facing that direction. And he wanted his dressing room better than Rip’s. So, he had Rip’s window covered.

[00:07:15] Paul Willson: Now I can tell these stories because I have no career anymore. I just really won't after this. Gary's death was a real shock. Yeah, it was so unexpected. He had a lot of fun. I mean, once I went there to visit, I w I'd been, I'd done, I'd finished the show in the morning and he said, stick around after lunch. We'll hang out. Yeah. So,I stuck around for two hours- three hours and he never came back.Gary Shandling was a strange person. Yeah. And he knew it and he spent his life. As I discovered later, trying to. Be a better person.

[00:07:50] Phil Proctor: Yeah. Zen diaries.

Paul Willson: Yes, exactly.

[00:07:58] Ted Bonnitt: Larry Sanders show. I heard that it was sort of improvisational-sh. What was your role?

[00:08:01] Phil Proctor: What character you play?

[00:08:03] Paul Willson: Three different characters. Manny, Moe, and Jack.

00:08:04] Phil Proctor: At the same time .

[00:08:07] Paul Willson: I played the first one I did was, was a guy who sold, uh, uh, promotional gift stuff, you know, tote bags and robes and stuff that they give away. And then, uh, I play his business manager who lost $3 million as a gambler.

You know, the last one I did was I played the brother of the cue card guy. And, uh, on Larry Sanders. Yeah, I would say there was, there was some, I mean, they were loose, Gary, wasn't a possessive about particular specific words or anything. And, and in the scene, my big scene with him. In that, in the show where I was his business manager, that was mostly improvised.

And he was, he was great to work with because he gave me obstacles and every actor wants to overcome obstacles. It gives you something to play against. It gives you, it gives you objectives and stuff. So, yeah. So anyway, yeah, I was really, I was really happy. I honestly, usually don't like it. At my work. Yeah. But that's what I can look at. Not only cause I had a false mustache on, but because, because I was really, I was really happy with it.

[00:09:17] Phil Proctor: Now, when did you do cheers?

[00:09:40] Paul Willson: Cheers. I actually did a few episodes. I did an episode in the first season.

Phil Proctor: What year? What year was that?

[00:09:40] Paul Willson: 1981 or 82.

Phil Proctor: See what amazes me about your resume is that because we all know those of us who were actors in get cast and television series and things like that. Yeah. Once you're locked into something, you're not supposed to be able to do anything else.

[00:09:40] Paul Willson: Well, what I mean, it's Gary Shandling show. They didn't want me to do anything else. Any, any other recurring role contract. They really, it was really out of bounds for them to ask for that. But I decided, you know, well, I will.

Uh, and so I stopped doing cheers, but I did, I did the first few episodes I did of cheers as different people each time. But the first time I was a guy who knew. All the words to the Bonanza theme song. But frankly, that was a nightmare for me and George Scott. I knew George before already because George Wendt, when George said, you know, this could be a continuing thing for you.

You could be a guy who knows all these TV themes on its head. No, don't wish for that because I have real. Uh, memorizing lyrics. And, and as the pressure of having to be there with the word on the note, it just killed me. And I was, you know, I thought I was, I, I CA I, I missed some stuff. You wouldn't know it in the middle cause nobody knows.

[00:10:35] Ted Bonnitt: It wasn't unusual to do multiple characters on the same series.

[00:10:37] Paul Willson: Some shows do it in some shows. Don't for instance, Curb Your Enthusiasm. If you've done, unless, you know, if you're playing yourself, that's another story. But, uh, but if you played one character, they don't want you to play that

[00:10:49] Ted Bonnitt: That show was improvised, right?

[00:10:52] Paul Willson: Yes, you get a scenario, uh, basically a set of, uh, uh, where the scene has to go the way it, where it starts and where it has to wind up. And then you just do it over and over again. And, uh, you know, what you can do with it. Tape, you know, you couldn't do it with film in the eyes. You couldn't do it on cheers.

[00:11:11] Ted Bonnitt: Right. You know, those days of Cheers, these big, big series, that's an era of Hollywood. That's now kind of past as well.

[00:11:20] Paul Willson: I'll tell you when you see a show, even now. I don't think the show dates very much. I mean, it is old fashioned quote, unquote.

Phil Proctor: but it captures an era.

[00:11:29] Paul Willson: Yeah, it does. It, does it captures a setting?I mean really well. Yeah. It's a collection of great characters and wonderful actors, Jimmy Burrows, who was one of the producers and the director. They captured lightning in a bottle.

Phil Proctor: It's true. It's everything came together.

Ted Bonnitt: Shelley long.

Paul Willson: Oh, Shelly. Yes.

[00:11:45] Ted Bonnitt: She said that. One of the reasons they did that funny kiss bit, the air kiss bit was because they were worried they were going to break their teeth if they actually made contact. And that's, that's how that did was born. They were trying to save their dental work.

[00:11:55] Phil Proctor: Your resume is absolutely chock full of a tremendous variety of television and film appearances.

[00:12:10] Ted Bonnitt: When you have a resume, as long as yours, and you obviously figured something out.

[00:12:19] Paul Willson: I figured out how to type it up. I have no idea, but I do know this and it's, it's a, it's a truism, That work begets work. So, and one thing I've been fortunate in is that that most of the things that I've done have been high quality tasks. when you're in something that a lot of people see, more people become interested in you. And then, uh, you know, so I've, there was a period of time. From say, the middle eighties until 1990, or maybe a couple of years beyond that, as long as cheers was on where I would get offers a lot of time. And, and those are usually for better things. I don't think I ever turned down at all. Like LyleTalbot said the secret to his success was he never said no to anything.

Right. Which is why he's in, uh, so many of those Ed Wood movies. I think that's one reason, but you know, I, I got my, there's a great deal of luck and everybody's career. Sure. The first network show I did was called serratus court, which was sort of like the night court premise, except it was Fred Willard. Uh, as, as the prosecutor prosecutor, but the point is I had no words, basically. I , because I played a guy who had, uh, who was, had been a tattoo artist and a Swedish sailor came into the shop drunk, and I gave him the tattoo. And after he sobered up, he came back and beat the crap out of me. So I was wearing a cast on my arm and a cast on my leg and a bandage all over my face.

Phil Proctor: That's what I call casting. It's right. And how about your film career office space is the one that you're best known for. How did that come about?

[00:14:00] Paul Willson: I was reading for the Charles brothers movie pushing tin, which is about air traffic controllers. And I read for that. And then I walked out into the hallway and this lady, I didn't know, came over and said, you might be good for this. Why don't you come in and read for this? And it was Office Space

[00:14:17] Phil Proctor: Wow. See, LA, are you in the right place at the right time.

[00:14:20] Paul Willson: I came up with a line that there clips all over the internet. The line is, uh, and, and this , they're not going to be working here anymore anyway. That's right. Yeah. So, and I've started the greatest looping session that I was ever in.

I was there with Mike Judge who is a genius. Yeah. Uh, and we're going through the queues and I'm, you know, I'm trying to doing these things and I say, I have no trouble hearing that. Do you have any trouble with Mike, Mike? No. I don't have any trouble. Well, let's just leave it the way it is. I mean, people who know when to stop messing with it because we never, it's very, very hard to get the original. Gestalt.. You can say the words and they can be in sync, but you know…

[00:15:01] Phil Proctor: ADR for again, for our folks out there who aren't acquainted with the business is additional dialogue replacement, looping and dubbing, which is used a lot, a lot. Uh, I, I was in looping groups for 30 years, you know, putting in, uh, replacing voices and adding backgrounds and speaking different languages and stuff.

And it's a, it's a very exciting and entertaining way to make a living over dubbing as well. You do much ADR work

[00:15:33] Paul Willson: I did quite a bit. I, um, to also a great way to learn a lot about the business. Isn't it though. I had gone to a photo. On Melrose, a few blocks away and was coming out of there with my photos. And Howard Hesseman drove by come up to my place. I knew him from San Francisco. He was in the commission of the committee. He said, follow me to my house. Anyway, he lived right in there and he lived on, uh, on Gardner street by Franklin. And he was, he was in the loop group. Carl Gottlieb and Alison cane, uh, from past trips from the committee and all.

[00:16:47] Phil Proctor: Carl Gottlieb of course, wrote Jaws. He wrote jaws and Alison Kane was really like one of the people who started allowed improvisational actors to really become groups that can go in and, and to do this work, this was revolutionary in two ways being, was it had been the playground of, of, of producers and casting directors who would get their girlfriends to jobs. And then they also used to use a lot of library sound, which was stuff from other projects, but they would just slap it on there. So this, this was a big change.

[00:16:47] Phil Proctor: So your improvisational history up in San Francisco, is that right? Yeah.

[00:16:53] Paul Willson: Our group called the Pitchell players formed when Roger Bowen came west from Second City to join The Committee because he knew Alan Meyerson who was directing the Committee. He had worked at Second City also, and they needed somebody and Roger wanted to move out. So he and his wife. It started before I was in Oregon going to school and it was the end of my junior year. And I got a call from one of my friends from high school and said, we just met this lady from New York who's starting an improv group. And do you want to join the group? And I said, sure. You know, because all I'd never really performed, but, but I was always from my youth, uh, you know, started. Stan Freberg, uh, Bob and Ray, Bob and Ray, of course. And, uh, but Stan Freberg first then, you know, uh, and the

[00:17:49] Phil Proctor: goons shows on, I know

[00:17:51] Paul Willson: they had those running on KPFA

[00:17:53] Phil Proctor: in the fifties, uh, and,

[00:17:56] Paul Willson: uh, you know, uh, Ernie Kovacs and all that.

[00:17:59] Phil Proctor: My idols as well.

[00:18:00] Paul Willson: And then, and then Nichols and May of course, yes. So I was primed for that.

[00:18:04] Phil Proctor: And you grew up in San Francisco.

[00:18:08] Paul Willson: I grew up in San Francisco and The Committee had opened when I was in high school and I went there as often as I could. You know, so I was, I was really ready to do something, although I hadn't really been a performer. I was on the stage crew and the PA crew when I was in school, but I'd always envied the performers, I just didn't. Couldn't do it. Yeah, but I'm doing it anyway.

[00:18:30] Phil Proctor: So that's an odd way to, to get into the business.

[00:18:38] Paul Willson: Well, I didn't even think, but it is getting into the business because this was a group of people who will in first place, four of us knew each other from high school and, uh, we were all lefty.

[00:18:48] Phil Proctor: And I wait a minute, eh left-handed or radical?

[00:18:51] Paul Willson: I dunno, not South paw.

[00:18:55] Phil Proctor: What brought you down to Los Angeles? Say what brings me down? No, no, no, not today then. Okay.

[00:19:02] Paul Willson: The pivotal players were, were working at a church in north beach,

[00:19:08] Phil Proctor: which had been converted to a satanic worship.

[00:19:02] Paul Willson: No, uh, the church of Jesus Christ. It

[00:19:18] Paul Willson: was a cold place called the intersection of arts and society or something like that, you know? And, uh, and the guy who ran it was a, it was a Reverend named John Williams.

[00:19:28] Phil Proctor: And who went on to become the composer later,

[00:19:18] Paul Willson: different John Williams, uh, and, uh, uh, he was really an interesting guy. We worked there for several years. We built the stage there. The stage was built by Roland Pitchell

[00:19:44] Paul Willson: He was actually the bartender at the Committee,

[00:19:49] Phil Proctor: so, well, it was named after him.

[00:19:56] Paul Willson: Yeah. It's named after the bartender. Yeah.Bowen was at a party.Yeah. A little drunk. Yeah. And we were all with trying to come up with a psychedelic name, you know, ah, Surrealistic Pillow had just come out anyway. And we, we were unable to agree on a name and Anne was at this party and just decided as director, she had the right to name. And she was talking to Roland Pitchell.

She says, why don't we call it the Pitchell Players?

[00:20:18] Phil Proctor: wonderful,

[00:20:21] Paul Willson: except nobody knows how to spell pitchell and I'm not going to tell him no, no. Well, but anyway, uh,

[00:20:25] Phil Proctor: so, uh, what was it? Yeah. How did you get down to LA? Oh, don't say, in a car.

[00:20:31] Paul Willson: I already said it. Oh, too late. I, um, uh, we, we're uh, working on a book, right. Written by Roger Bowen in San Francisco and looking for a venue.And at that point we had already performed a few times at the end.

[00:20:45] Phil Proctor: On Melrose. Yep. We're at a Firesign just to cut its teeth. Right.

[00:20:48] Paul Willson: And, um, and they had several fires. I think you'd call it burnt down. They had three fires. It's a very lefty club and,

[00:20:45] Phil Proctor: uh, and, and right wingers burned it down twice.

[00:21:01] Paul Willson: Well, yeah. Anti Castro Cubans did the first time. That's right. And it with machine guns and Molotov cocktails. When was this? This was 1969 and we were, we were supposed to play. Country Joe McDonalds. Yep. Who was married to Robin Menken, who was Robin Mankin right.

[00:21:14] Phil Proctor: Forgive me folks. But these people, resonate with this old boomer.

[00:21:24] Paul Willson: If these names resonate with you, .you obviously need to tighten the screws.

[00:21:30] Paul Willson: but, uh, and we had a great time at the Ashgrove, but yeah, we did too then. Uh, a talent scout from Dick Clark productions came to the show and he said, he likes it, you know, lefties. He said, oh, you have any material that isn't quite so clear?

No. no that was it. But, and you know, and we w so we opened the, our own club, the pivotal players, cabaret, and Roger put basically everything into it. They sold the house which wold be worth $7 million now I have no idea. Uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, made it into, uh, a beer and wine with, uh, with food cabaret and, uh, we all joined equity and we got an equity contract.

There's always been an ag buy house. Yeah. Which means it wasn't a union house. It was a variety of artists. Yeah. So this was a book show located. At the improv. And then you took over the Ashgrove and we, then we took over the Ash Grove and then, uh, Bud Friedman, Which is still going strong. But I don't think bud has anything to do with it anymore. And I don't think most people would recognize it, but it was a great place. And I lived right around the corner on Kilkia.

[00:22:50] Phil Proctor: Oh boy. So I just, so there you are in the Pitchell players, feeding people and getting them drunk.

[00:23:01] Paul Willson: this is how I got down here was because they wanted to do the show down here. What then happened was that, uh, because we had an equity con. We all of a sudden had equity breathing down our necks, uh, and, and basically not letting us do things. Oh. So we wound up being the only group of people in the world who could not perform there.

Oh dear. You know, because theater could book acts in, you know, basically like a variety thing. Uh, but, but we couldn't do say they could call people out of the audience. So this last year for a little while, but we weren't getting paid. And, uh, uh, I went back to San Francisco for the,

[00:23:43] Phil Proctor: where are you getting fed and getting drunk.

[00:23:49] Paul Willson: Okay. We rolled people. Well, you know, some people were actually starting to work then I wasn't, but yeah. But there was a guy, uh, uh, African-American actor called John Anthony Bailey, who actually got a job on a Sid and Marty Kroft series right away. Uh, and unfortunately it affected him badly and, uh, he became a coke addict.

And I mean, it's just, it's a sad story because he was really, uh, yeah. What a wonderful actor,

[00:23:43] Phil Proctor: We lost many wonderful comic minds to over overdoses and things like that in those days.

[00:24:25] Paul Willson: Yeah. 1969 1970 and 71. They were particularly deadly yes. Those years. But I also, when we were doing that, I'm, you know, I met Al Franken and Tom Davis and, uh, I, I met everybody in the gap and they used to do shows there.

I didn't unfortunately see the Firesign Theatre there cause it must've been when I went back to San Francisco

[00:24:45] Phil Proctor: we said, oh, he's gone.

[00:24:48] Paul Willson: Let's go, let's close this

[00:24:49] Phil Proctor: clear. But, but the, uh, the guy, I

[00:24:52] Paul Willson: don't know if you saw their, their review sort of really was, you

[00:24:55] Phil Proctor: know? Yes I do. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. They were very, very clever, very witty, but see, they can't judge a book by the

[00:25:02] Paul Willson: way, it cuts his hair.

It was a Jackson brother, Jackson, five parody. You can't, you can't tell a book by the way it

[00:25:10] Phil Proctor: cuts his hair. Yeah. The credibility gap began at KRLA. I believe it was when we were doing radio free eyes, they would come on. The show and Richard Beebe, who is like a head of the news department. He was the one who inspired them to do topical comedy.

What was happening in the news again? Political satire and satire is really what fueled us, us fools in, in those days. Yeah. And in

[00:25:41] Ted Bonnitt: those days you didn't have the woke movement, political correctness.

[00:25:51] Phil Proctor: It was political incorrectness, which was part of the fun suppose it was tolerated then compared to now it wasn't public. Well, it was left wing for one thing.

Well, I mean the, yeah, the, the crowd, but I think it had to do with the audiences that we attract.

[00:26:01] Paul Willson: Yeah. And I, and I know, I know for sure that, uh, that there was an undercurrent, especially among them. Because even like in 1966 or 67, 66, I went to an SDS, uh, conference in, uh, at the university of Illinois and

[00:26:15] Phil Proctor: SDS stands for students for democratic society.

[00:26:17] Paul Willson: And it was a big confab. It was still a lot of people there. And, but one thing that happened was that a bunch of women started saying, ‘we're not going to make your dinner and we're not going to go get your coffee.’ Okay. Yeah. Which is really where the street-level women's liberation movement began. So it was like a, get, you get your act together.

[00:26:44] Phil Proctor: cSo that's not exactly political, but you know, a concept social that's the social politics.

[00:26:49] Paul Willson: Sure. But, but the idea of political correctness was it. Yeah, on the left, the meetings would go into the middle of the night and people say, come on, let's just settle on the thing that's most politically correct. And then move on, you know, and it was a joke. Politically correct meant something that everybody could agree on that seemed to fit with whatever the mission of the group. It was kind of a riff on conformity. Well, it was, it was a, it was a sarcastic, it was ironic. Yeah. So, uh, and, but I, you know, having had a lot, I don't a lot of friends who were much more active. Uh, SDS and other movements that I was, uh, they said their policy was always because there was so much infiltration. They had to perform a lot for the people that are infiltrating, They adopted the second, most radical suggestion because they assumed that the most radical one came from the agent provocateur I'll tell you that was so much fun. Growing up at just that at that time, you know? I dropped out of Reed college after three years because I lived in San Francisco and it was 1966, you know, and, uh, this improv group and all this other stuff.

[00:28:02] Phil Proctor: So there was more to learn in life and on the street than there was sitting in a classroom.

[00:28:07] Paul Willson: diggers were making stew and 50 pound oil drums on Haight street. You know what I mean? And there was a free store where you could just walk in and take it. Wow. You're supposed to, supposed to leave stuff too, you know, but yeah, it was a great, and that's the, that's the same year in which the Pitchell players were created, you know,. wonderful.

[00:28:26] Ted Bonnitt: Yeah. It resonated for years into the mid seventies,

[00:28:29] Paul Willson: I think it's still there, although it's not outwardly there, you know, I mean, what the new left is all about. It was anti Stalinist. It was community based. It was let the people decide. It was, you know, uh, I actually, I went to college with. Have going to Reed college, which was, had a reputation for being radical, uh, Dalton Trumbo, his daughter Mitzi, and, uh, and the son of the, uh, head of the communist party in Los Angeles, Dorothy Healey, and a couple of other people, the red diaper babies,

[00:29:00] Phil Proctor: Red diaper babies.

ed Bonnitt: I've never heard that term.

[00:29:03] Paul Willson: Oh yeah. That's kids whose parents were communists.

[00:29:07] Ted Bonnitt We're speaking with.Pill… PIL Walson. We'll be right back.

Spot Break

This is David Duke and I'm running for President. I can change the face of America. I changed my own. Some people say I'm a Nazi. Some people say I'm a Klansman. Well, I'd like their names and addresses. Come on America, give hate chance. I'm Dave Duke. Check under the hood. You might like what you find.

[[00:29:37] A.E. Guy: Your listening to Phil and Ted’s Sexy Boomer Show with Phil Proctor and Ted Bonnitt. To hear all the sexy boomer shows go to sexy boomer show.com. Please tell your friends about The Sexy Boomer show and help us build our audience.

If you'd like to be notified when a new episode is posted, press the subscribe button in your podcast player. Back to Phil and Ted and their special guest, comedic actor and activist, Paul Willson.

[00:30:07] Phil Proctor: Welcome back. We're having an appalling conversation with Paul Willson

[00:30:11] Ted Bonnitt: Paul, you grew up in San Francisco at a really interesting time. There was a real transition going from the beat poets to the free love movement.

[00:30:20] Paul Willson: And I was really lucky in high school too, because we had such a great group of people who were smart and funny, you know. Everybody got good grades, so they didn't have to worry about that. It was easy for them. And then, and everybody was just funny and really woke.

[00:30:36] Phil Proctor: Yeah.

Paul Willson: I hate that expression.

Phil Proctor: I know, but it is appropriate for that. Yeah,

[00:30:39] Paul Willson: I suppose. But yeah, so it was that conscious, I guess. So I would, and my friends and I would always go out to North Beach while it was just at the tail end of the beatnik era. So, like the Coexistence Bagel Shop wasn't there anymore, but there was still, there was a place called Happy Things with the puppet here. Wallow did shows in the window every night and you know, on upper Grand. Yeah. There were jewelry artists and jewelry places. So, uh, and then the old spaghetti factory was a great place. Uh, and you can, those days you could go there and drive and park on the street.

[00:31:17] Ted Bonnitt: San Francisco. Now it is a money-driven city, it's the center of technology. But back in the sixties and seventies, it was really wholly different.

[00:31:28] Paul Willson: There was money there, there was a financial district, but it was, we keep them contained.

You know, I moved there when I was six. I dragged my parents kicking and screaming from Minnesota. Hmm. To, uh, and, and in those days I really have vivid memories of everything being huge, of course. Yeah. But, uh, air in the sky and the, and the old fashioned traffic signals with th …

[00:31:48] Phil Proctor: they're called the birdcage signals.

[00:31:51] Paul Willson: Yeah. Yeah. And it was really like an outpost. It was a very, definitely, it was a Western city, you know, it, it wasn't, uh, overcrowded and the, the, the tallest building is called the Russ building. And I think it was 35 stories, something like that. And then there was, then there was Coit tower. And when you looked at the skyline, it was this slightly tall building and then Coit tower over there and, you know, and beautiful. And now all those things are buried and the new, many of the new buildings are ugly.

[00:32:21] Ted Bonnitt: I guess I'm just trying to capture the spirit that, what San Francisco once was.

[00:32:28] Paul Willson: So you have that you have the north beach thing, which is really sort of, uh, I, I matured a colony of the spores that came from New York, just because so many of the beach were from New York or the east coast, uh, Ginsburg.And, you know, I mean, all so, um, they were transplanted in San Francisco because it was sort of wide open. It was, it was much freer and a lot of them back there in the east would get in trouble with the. Cops because the cops were all Irish, Catholic cops, you know, and they hated these people at Lenny Bruce was up against him too, but he was, you know, he loved San Francisco too, for the same reason.

[00:33:14] Ted Bonnitt: We were talking about being a lefty and all, I mean, I guess being brought up in San Francisco, it's hard to avoid it. So have you always been politically active?

Paul Willson: Yeah, it was a very democratic, very politically active city, you know,

[00:33:25] Ted Bonnitt: lifelong liberal

[00:33:27] Phil Proctor: Democrat.

[00:33:30] Paul Willson: Yeah. And then I became, I became radicalized when the, uh, subversive activities control board played the city hall. They had. Hmm hearings, uh, you know, at red, red scare hearings in the city hall, this was the organization that determined who went on the attorney General's list. It was an executive branch structure. And this was when you probably remember that this happened, the fire department came and washed all the demonstrators down the steps with, you know, real like Selma move, you know? And, uh, that was in 1960. That's the thing that I was in junior high school. It had radicalized me.

[00:34:06] Ted Bonnitt: People think right now, things are so tribal and so divided and violent and scary compared to the sixties, not so much. What is your take on where we've ended up and how we got here?

[00:34:20] Paul Willson: What’s interesting about the sixties, uh, Republicans, weren't the way they are. My father knew a guy who worked for the German press agency, uh, and he had, uh, press passes to the 1964 GOP national convention. So I went with long hair beard with a floor pass, you know, and I could just go up and talk to people. I met George Romney and, uh, yeah. And, um,

Ted Bonnitt: This is the year of Barry Goldwater.

[00:34:50] Paul Willson: Yeah. I came out with a bunch of demonstrators.

Ted Bonnitt: And where was this?

[00:34:55] Paul Willson: at the Cow Palace in San Francisco. They were all Republicans and they were, many of them were liberals. Rockefeller was a social liberal and that doesn't exist anymore. And at the same time, the Democratic Party was had two basic Caucuses, they had the liberals and they had the segregationist south. And, uh, which created a lot of compromises, necessary compromises,

[00:35:22] Ted Bonnitt: Gold water didn't succeed. But 15 years later, the Reagan revolution happened; deregulation and trickle down economics. 40 years later. Here we are. How do you see where we're at right now? I mean, some people like myself think there's a civil war going on.

[00:35:42] Paul Willson: Yeah, I tend to agree with you. Um, because like, in that period you had two different realities, right? I mean, the people in the south convinced themselves it was about state's rights as a totally different way of looking at life. And, uh, and honestly, the the big picture I see is America could be a great country, but 40% of it is essentially dead weight. You know, as far as bringing us now, other countries all have infrastructures that are so much more modern and friendly than ours are and what we've become well, Russia was switched. But in terms of how antiquated everything is, but we've really become old Europe. We've become the reason why all those people came from Europe because of the stagnation. All the wealth was at the top. There was no opportunity at the bottom. This country is becoming that.

[00:36:38] Ted Bonnitt: Do you think the U.S. is a kleptocracy the plutocracy?

[00:36:43] Paul Willson: It's all those things. Well, it's like the gilded age on steroids, you know, because when you have, when you have a business model, In which one, man, Jeff Bezos can be worth half a trillion dollars. And his people have to pee in cans as employees that says one thing to me- they don't pay their employees enough money.

[00:37:05] Phil Proctor: That's right.

[00:37:07] Paul Willson: And when they talk about redistributing income, they they're thinking about taxes, but the first place is wages and we need a new strong union movement. Yes. But the, the ground is so much more difficult now because of the amount of information that they can get on everybody and blackmail people.

[00:37:25] Ted Bonnitt How do you see it playing out?

[00:37:28] Paul Willson: Honestly, I don't know. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, what usually happens to the democratic administrations is the Republicans completely balled up because they siphoned all the money out and give it to the, their wealthy donors. And there's not an investment capital and they don't want to pay anybody any money. And they want to automate all the jobs where it's just driverless cars. What do you think that's about? That's not about progress. That's about eliminating jobs. Cutting labor out of the picture yet. They want everybody to have a job, just not with me, you know?

[00:37:59] Ted Bonnitt: Well, that's why universal basic income is going to be inevitable, I think.

[00:38:04] Paul Willson: Absolutely because, you know, honestly there's not work for everybody, but if they have, they can do something useful that that doesn't pay. Well, you know, I think a big turning point was when discount stores actually it had a lot to do with Chinese manufacturer, Asian manufacturer. When they started proliferating in the seventies, because I remember you go into a store and you'd buy something and you know, you'd pay what the price was. Uh, then when these cheap stores started coming in, they were all union and, uh, somewhat so much of the work went overseas and most of the unions were killed. So people didn't have very much money anymore, but they could afford to buy the shit. What they couldn't afford was housing education, medical care.

Uh, and, and that's, what's happened to this country. It's been hollowed out until there's a solution for that problem. The, the re the effect on people who are essentially ignorant, let's just face it because they've been kept ignorant. You know, you go to an average small town in the south of the, or that mountain west.

And listen, my in-laws in South Carolina, although they are Christian conservatives and are big supporters of. Are also admirable people, very hardworking, very open and friendly and, um, and hospitable and loving people. You know, they just have this different mindset. And in the old days, it didn't matter because there was a liberal consensus and you will out to these people sort of, you know, uh, outlier ideas, you know, it's, it's re vestige of slavery and all that old south kind of thing, but it sure is nice to go down there cause the people are very friendly. Um, but now it's like, f they become powerful, they're not a majority, but they have the power in the right places so they can rule the majority.

And that's the danger we face. Now, if we lose the U.S. House of Representatives, because people say the Democrats didn't do anything when they. Because Mitch McConnell is so good at blocking everything that the same thing happens every time. As I was saying, a Democratic administration comes in to try to clean up the Republican mess. They have to spend all their time basically on defense. And then the Republicans come in and talk about abortion and drugs and get reelected, you know, and take over again. And the same thing happens again. And it's very frustrating and I don't know what to do about that.

[00:40:31] Ted Bonnitt: Since 1960 -70’s when union started to lose their impact, that's one way wages started to stagnate. It's right there. But yet the wealth class has skyrocketed as has the GDP, but the people that were left behind were all the middle-class and that's the scary part. Three people having more wealth than 50% of the U.S. population.

[00:40:56] Paul Willson: Digitization’s done that because it's not like we make stuff in the traditional sense. Right? So the only kind of people they employ are either very skilled, uh, you know, it workers and programmers and drivers and stockers, you know, so there's nobody in between.

Ted Bonnitt: I guess the only answer is comedy.

[00:41:18] Paul Willson: It's our, um, constellation. That's what the talk shows and all the jokes are about during the Trump period.just got, and that's what Westworld was about. It was just solace, you know, shelter from the storm.

[00:41:34] Ted Bonnitt: Well, um, thanks!

[00:41:39] Phil Proctor: Thanks!

[00:41:37] Paul Willson: Well, thank you. I haven't had a conversation like this in a long time,

Ted Bonnitt: a year, at least.

Phil Proctor: More so, but you know, every time that you and I have had. An opportunity to spend some time together, usually over a martini at Musso and Frank's, I've learned more about your life and your trajectory and I, and I've learned to admire you…finally!

[00:42:08] Ted Bonnitt: Thank you for letting us come to your backyard and be in your face.

[00:42:17] Paul Willson: ‘till we meet again.

[00:42:19] Ted Bonnitt: What a fascinating conversation.

[00:42:20] Phil Proctor: Every time I talked to Paul, I learned something new. Yeah. Cause he knows how to make things up.

[00:42:28] Ted Bonnitt: It was great. Well, Phil, good to see you outside again.

Phil Proctor: It's good to be outside.

Ted Bonnitt: Yes. So where are we going to call the show now?

[00:42:34] Phil Proctor: Either In Your Face or Face to Face, what do you think? I think in your face, something like that,

[00:42:39] Ted Bonnitt: we'll figure it. We're out of the bunker.

Phil Proctor: Yeah. Out of the bunker.

Ted Bonnitt: Until next time. I'm Ted Bonnitt

[00:42:44] Phil Proctor: I'm Phil Proctor.

Ted Bonnitt: See ya.

[00:42:48] A.E. Guy: You've been listening to Phil and Ted’s Sexy Boomer Show with Phil Proctor and Ted Bonnitt. and their special guest Paul Willson. David Duke for President was written and performed by Patrick Weathers. Music by Eddie Baytos and the Nervis Brothers.

I'm A. Earnest Guy. Stay tuned for the next episode of Phil and Ted’s Sexy Boomer Show. Produced by RadioPictures.com, the makers of fine podcasts for seasoned hipsters, man.